Choosing the right fueling setup!!

Hello guys, as you may or may not know im going for a multipoint injection setup instaed off the rubbish SPI setup, this way i can ensure each cylinder gets 25% of the delivered fuel so they are all equal and run the same A/F ratio.
I have a dew ways of doing this but im still undecided as to what im going to do here are the options so far -

Option one -

I fit the Punto 75 MPI manifold and mount my current throttle body ontop so i have 5 injectors, the SPI injecotor will run off the standard ECU and standard ecu map for off boost then the MPI setup can control fueling on boost by using the MF2 i have now, but to do this i require 4 injectors that have a "low impendance" which means they must have a resistance of around 2.5-3ohms. This way the MF2 can controll all four as on boost injecotors and running 15-18psi off boost would mean the SPI injecotor (recieving only 1 bar fuel pressure) would stop injecting any fuel so that is how id like it to be.
I have four punto 75 injecotors at the moment in the MPI manifold so i need to find out 1. how much they will flow???? and 2. are they a low impedance????. To be honest if i go down this route i see myself using a set off different injecotors as i really dont think in a million years 75 injecotors will give me 150bhp plus

option two -

Again i fit the MPI manifold and use the 75 injectors, these are then controlled by the O.E ecu by slpicing into the wiring for the standard injecotor and splitting it to the four 75 injectors leaving the cosworth injecotor and MF2 to do what they do now on boost but far better fuel distribution over the SPI setup and spi manifold! the main thing here is i dont have to source any injecotors because the 75 items are a close match combined to the o.e cinq item and therefore the fueling off boost would be not far off standard. Im least swayed to this idea but its cheap and easy to do as a test.

option three -

This is the best option of them all and the most sutable by far but there is a drawback, its exspensive! it involves going for a fully indipendant ECU through noble motorsport's using the Omex 600 series ECU to fully control the engine as if it where a turbo from the factory.
Id use just 4 sutable injecotors, a 2 bar map sensor, my knock sensor, wideband lambda and this would mean the ecu could controlling fueling on and off boost perfectly while monitoring knock and controlling ignition timing accordingly to gain the absoulute best results from the setup and maintaining a reliable setup. This would mean i could get rid off the MF2 and the fuel cut defender as the new ecu could take over, but id keep my boost controller so i can still switch between 7psi and the max limit it has been setup at (probs gonna be 18psi).

First things first i need to to find a set of injecotors that will give me enough flow for 150-170hp @3 bar fuel pressure with a low impadance!!

thanks

jason

buy my sequential injection controller off me when i go standalone :p Its far easier to set up than a MF2 as well!

why go for Omex anyways? Just because Noble say you have to? Megasquirt will do everything you need and more besides, its just not as easy to set up as Omex (assuming Noble have the magic knob for target mapping on Omex ecus) but the beauty of MS is you would map it yourself, especially when you have a knock controller and wideband already.

munkul wrote:buy my sequential injection controller off me when i go standalone :p Its far easier to set up than a MF2 as well!

why go for Omex anyways? Just because Noble say you have to? Megasquirt will do everything you need and more besides, its just not as easy to set up as Omex (assuming Noble have the magic knob for target mapping on Omex ecus) but the beauty of MS is you would map it yourself, especially when you have a knock controller and wideband already.

Only really said Omex because it was the first ECU id got priced up (fitted and mapped with a new loom cus mine is shot!), plus nobles fit the Omex regular to alot off cars and Darren at Nobles is regarded as "one of the best mappers in the UK" by alot off JAP tuner mags and the Ford seen, and when you are running upto 18psi with around 150-175bhp on a 1242 on standard internals you want the setup to be perfect as one small flaw could lead to big problems etc...... now that im willing to pay for

I wouldnt mind having the controller off you mate seems a good idea, main thing for me at the moment is to try and cut down on the amount off controllers running the engine, im assuming your controller is injection only? so i would still have to run the J and S knock controller and the fuel cut defender too, plus that means i would still have to run the O.E injector for off boost too for finer control off boost where as a full standalone would mean MPI with just 4 large injecotors.
Something to think about anyway mate.....when you planning to get rid of the controller anyway? lol

thanks

jason

I wasnt knocking Omex nor Noble, just curious as to why it was that one you mentioned. If Omex is what they like to use then fair dues, no point making them map something they dont like as much. Eg, my local tuner likes DTA so if i was getting anything expensive it would be DTA just because he has masses of experience with the system and all the equipment to make mapping them easier.

well hopefully I will get a fresh inlet manifold/TB tomorrow from the scrappies so im gonna buy the full MS-2 setup after that. Priced it all up including boost control options and everything i need will cost about £340 inc postage, with maybe another £60 import duty on top. So you can see why im pushing MS, lol

I was half joking about the REBIC controller TBH. It will be better than what you have but its not really much of a step forward. Id definitely want full standalone if i were in your boots.

Plus i might adapt the REBIC for water/methanol injection instead

munkul wrote:I wasnt knocking Omex nor Noble, just curious as to why it was that one you mentioned. If Omex is what they like to use then fair dues, no point making them map something they dont like as much. Eg, my local tuner likes DTA so if i was getting anything expensive it would be DTA just because he has masses of experience with the system and all the equipment to make mapping them easier.

well hopefully I will get a fresh inlet manifold/TB tomorrow from the scrappies so im gonna buy the full MS-2 setup after that. Priced it all up including boost control options and everything i need will cost about £340 inc postage, with maybe another £60 import duty on top. So you can see why im pushing MS, lol

I was half joking about the REBIC controller TBH. It will be better than what you have but its not really much of a step forward. Id definitely want full standalone if i were in your boots.

Plus i might adapt the REBIC for water/methanol injection instead

I do see why you are going for the MS setup, its great but its not for me sadly

I think my plan for the time being to go MPI (having a low budjet) is to run four high impedance injectors from something like the coupe turbo (if they are a straight swap) and run them off my MF2, at least then im running mpi and i can start saving for a new ecu lol.
Ow and by the way i have the same plan for water injection using the mf2 when i go standalone if matt doesnt have the mf2 for his low boost setup.

thanks

jason

Hello guys, i have made up my mind on the fuelling set-up for going MPI on my set-up!

Thanks to martin (allenhellen) I have found that the standard 180-200cc Punto 75 injector's should flow enough fuel to give 150bhp running with the SPI injector so i can run 3-4bar from the RS2000 fuel pump to the 75 injectors and run the standard fuel pressure (or the same as the MPI injectors).
This way i will have my required "SPI off boost" "MPI on boost" setup for better power, economy and more importantly reliability!!

I also have some Volvo 850 2.0 10v injectors which i believe to be the same as the 20v 170bhp v70 injectors incase the 75 injectors cause an issue! these injectors are 17ohm high impendance items where as the 75 injectors are 14ohm high impedance so im hoping these wount cause a problem with the MF2!!

ill be taking the head off and fitting the ported 75 head/manifold and MPI setup with 40mm throttle body later this week so ill post some pics up off the new 5 injector setup.

Thanks

Jason

here is the latest update guys -

The MPI manifold and head have been dropped off at work tonight so on friday i can have the head pressure tested and checked for flatness etc, and then i can match the ports on the manifold to the head ports. Im going to clean the 75 injecotors and get them fitted into the maifold all clean and with fresh seals after the porting!!

Also ive spent some time on the phone with the fantastic Ferriday engineering where i discussed compression ratio's for the new spec engine, i have decided to go for another decomp plate but this time a more exspensive copper decomp plate "1.5mm" which will lower to the C/R to 8.25:1 which will be ideal for running upto 20psi off boost without any issues, if i would have gone for the 1.2mm decomp plate it would have taken the C/R too 8.6:1.
Ive decided to go with the plate again because id rather stick with my bottom end until i go to a full standalone and still have the reliability, the copper decomp plates take more punishment than the alluminium ones when it come to heat and blow by issues which i had.

The plate and sealant delivered came to 137quid and comes on friday which is hopefully when i get the turbo back and the head!

thanks

jason

are you using standard head bolts?
last time i spoke to mike he didnt like the idea of me using copper at all, obviously something has changed his mind though....

it will be interesting to see if it copes ok.

munkul wrote:are you using standard head bolts?
last time i spoke to mike he didnt like the idea of me using copper at all, obviously something has changed his mind though....

it will be interesting to see if it copes ok.

it will be fine, seems copper is the favoured for higher temp higher power applications, he did say its will take more than the alluminuim plate (not that the alli plate is a problem) but we will see how it goes ye.

thanks

jason

ive been doing a little research into the C/R on my engine and it seems the 75 engine has a C/R off 9.8:1 which is higher than the punto 60'd 9.5:1 and the 1108's 9.6:1 so after having a chat with mike at Ferriday my C/R with the 1.5mm plate would be 8.5:1 rather than 8.25:1, which is fine but i need to look into the exact figures to work out what my C/R would be seen as the head seems to have been skimmed a fair bit as i dont want a repeat of the past where my C/R was to high from using a 75 block-1.5mm plate and a GSR head which limited me to 0.65bar off boost!

So tonight im going to measure the capacity of each combustion chamber in the head, the dish in the piston, the high of the pistons iff its pround off the block! and the thickness of the compressed head gasket combined with the 1.5mm plate which will give me the figures to get my exact C/R and see if i actualy need a thicker plate

thanks

jason

the two problems with Cu is its expansion rates are different to Al, and it isnt as soft. This means the surface finish is utterly crucial on the two joining metal faces, and even still you might suffer a little blow-by. Did he say the copper was to bond to the head or the block?

That was my thinking, but he said to me himself that he doesnt like using Cu over Al if he can help it.
If he reccomended it to you then i may investigate a thicker cu plate instead of going all out on forged pistons. Or possibly a decked block and single copper plate gasket.

munkul wrote:the two problems with Cu is its expansion rates are different to Al, and it isnt as soft. This means the surface finish is utterly crucial on the two joining metal faces, and even still you might suffer a little blow-by. Did he say the copper was to bond to the head or the block?

That was my thinking, but he said to me himself that he doesnt like using Cu over Al if he can help it.
If he reccomended it to you then i may investigate a thicker cu plate instead of going all out on forged pistons. Or possibly a decked block and single copper plate gasket.

hi mate, he didnt say if the copper plete is to bond to the head or block but id imagine the head. I will have to ring him back about my findings anyway so ill ask him then

And yes he did sound swayed towards using the copper item for me but i surpose it depends on a few varients, like he said there is no problem using the alluminium plate but because of the issues id had before he kind off said it would suit my needs more. Id give him a ring and see what he says to you about your application and what your thinking off doing etc, be interesting what he would say

I like the idea off decking the head and using a thick copper plate though, probably be a very reliable way off doing it for higher power etc.

thanks

jason

Hello, last night i stipped off the head (25mins and it was off god i love fiats!!) and removed the 1.5mm alluminium decomp plate sandwhiched between 2 Payen head gaskets and to be fair the "bodged" design has worked perfect!, there was no sign at all of fatigue on the gaskets (they looked new!) and the there has been no blow by between cylinders like before either, it may be a no no way off doing it but it worked for me for over a year at 1 bar boost with 125ish bhp so im impressed

Next on ther inspection list was the usual f.i.r.e engine "sloppy pistons" which are as bad as ever (you can see the top piston ring clearly when you move the pistons over to one side of the chamber) but yet compression is maintained and the engine is a good quiet runner. Ive done so many Fiat 8v head Gaskets ranging from 35,000 miles to well over a 100k and they all suffer with piston slap to some digree due to excessive skirt wear but the bores remain in good condition for the milage with no lip on the bores.
I say you only need to worry when the pistons start to become noisey in the bores (sounds like two cups clangfing together) then its time to get a new bottom end! (like my last engine which suffered from bore wash).

Any way i dropped the 75 head and inlet on to see how they fitted in and its tight but it'll go in, the servo pipe on the rear of the inlet has to twisted upwards to miss the firewall (although it will have to go through the fire wall slightly), and the hight issue cause by the 75 maniflold lifting the T.B up alot has been sorted by adapting trickers alluminium adaptor plate to fit the 75 inlet.....nice
Also on the list is to send a pipe round the rear off the TB to pipe up to the end off the 75 inlet because its not watercooled/heated like the spi unit so therfore bypassed along with a finding a way to get the push fit fuel pipes to pipe to the MPI rail .

I did a little mesuring off the head hights by the way (before i measure the cc's off the chambers, the standard 75 head is 0.8mm chunkier than the 75 head i have to go on but the new 75 head is 1/4 off a mm chunkier than my current head which is a slight plus point. Ill be doing the CC test tonight so ill try and pop some pics up off the engine/head etc and pop some info up on the readings off my various heads etc.

thanks

jason

hello

Ive been in the gargage tonight measuring the combustion chambers on the new 75 head and the 1108 GSR head which has just come from my engine, looking underneath on the face off both heads at the skimming markers it is abvious that the GSR head has been skimmed more than the 75 head. On one off the skimming markers on the GSR head the marker has alomost gone!

Using a vets 0.1-1mm medicine sringe and a flat see through plastic sheet cut down to fit over the chamber with serveral air holes cut out ive measured best as possible the amounts off MM's off water goes into the chambers here are my results -

75 head chamber 4 (cylinder 4) = 22.2mm (22.2cc's)
75 head chamber 1 (cylinder 1) = 22mm (22.0cc's)

1108cc GSR head chamber 4 (cylinder 4) = 21.4mm (21.4cc's)
1108cc GSR head chamber 1 (cylinder 1) = 21.6mm (21.6cc's)

Compressed Payen head gasket = 1.7-1.8mm

So let me just review my past problem and setup issues -

At the rolling road with 75 bottom end and a 1.5mm decomp plate on the 1108cc GSR skimmed head!, running 0.6bar boost max on the GT15 (low blow turbo) due to a detanation issue caused (assumed to be caused) by the C/R being to high ! So i went home and fitted an extra payen head gasket as an exsperiment but the 1.7-1.8mm extra lift was far far to much and the C/R is estimated to have dropped as low as 7.0:1 !!! which exsplains why i lost 21bhp at the same 0.6bar boost when i revisited the rolling road again!

Between the 1.5mm plate and the payen gasket i added 3.2-3.3mm of lift to the head! (5mm including the bottom head gasket)

I need to have a good chat with Mike at Ferriday once i have measured the area in the dish on the piston and above the piston as the pistons sits down in the bores slightly, because im worried if i put the 1.5mm plate on and the 75 head i may run into the same problem again on the rolling road. So using all the figures i can work out exactly what the new c/r will be using the new decomp plate and then i no if it will be suitable or if i need a thicker one. I want no more than around 8.6:1 using the J and S for knock control. However id idealy like a ratio of around 8.2-8.4:1 for running higher boost in the future should i wish too.

thanks

jason

The new 5 injector MPI manifold setup -






Here you will see at the top side of the piston a shiny moon shape!......that is the piston ring itself!!

is that a fuel regulator built into the injector rail? Mine has something like that built in at the end - im not sure what it is because im more used to simpler electronic systems...

munkul wrote:is that a fuel regulator built into the injector rail? Mine has something like that built in at the end - im not sure what it is because im more used to simpler electronic systems...

Yes mate spot on it is, its fitted with a vac input for quick richening of the fuel mixture like after market regs etc. I would imagine yours is the same as with vertualy all modern cars now come to think of it lol.

Im simply going to remove the vac input and fit my adjustable reg down stream so i can run higher pressure

thanks

jason

no thats the thing. Modern cars dont have a mechanical fuel reg in the engine bay, the fuel is regulated back at the pump in the tank. Thats why i was thrown when i saw the thingy at the end of the fuel rail on my earlier mk1 manifold.
I think i will be binning the regulator and blocking the return line on mine, and just let the standard pump do its thang.

munkul wrote:no thats the thing. Modern cars dont have a mechanical fuel reg in the engine bay, the fuel is regulated back at the pump in the tank. Thats why i was thrown when i saw the thingy at the end of the fuel rail on my earlier mk1 manifold.
I think i will be binning the regulator and blocking the return line on mine, and just let the standard pump do its thang.

Cool not seen that setup yet, you no how it works?? all the new volvos and fords still use a fuel rail reg with vac input that i have seen, i may have seen a few before with just a bare rail though.....

thanks

jason

maybe just fiats then. All the super-FIRE engines in mk2 puntos, grande puntos, 500s and pandas use this setup - i was under the impression also that more cars were, but maybe wrong.

Right, ive been doing a little working out to see how accurate i can be -

I no that a standard 1994 punto 75 engine (my bottom end) has a C/R off 9.8:1 and a slighly different stroke to the 60 and the new putno engine (78.80mm) rather than 78.90mm.

so using these figures this is what i worked it out to be using my method -

(stock 75 engine set up)

bore x stroke = 70.80mm x 78.80mm

22.2cc combustion chamber (based on my 75 head)

1.8mm compressed gasket

0 deck height (flush fit) - again based on my block.

6cc piston dish

= 9.792:1 ................which is as good as 9.8:1 so i did the same test for my old problamatic setup using the GSR head and 1.5mm decomp plate etc etc -

bore x stroke = 70.80mm x 78.80mm

21.5cc combustion chamber on GSR head

1.8mm compressed gasket

1.5mm decomp plate

0 deck height

6cc dish on piston

= 8.66:1

and here below is my working out for my current "desired spec" on the new 75 head. -

bore x stroke = 70.80mm x 78.80mm

22.2cc combustion chamber

1.8mm compressed gasket

1.5mm decomp plate

0 deck height

6cc piston dish

= 8.53:1

But if my rubbish measuring equpiment is letting me down then here is how it could sway the outcome either way -

8.85:1 or 8.47:!

now it would be great for me to get 8.4:1 as this would be ideal for the boost level i want but nowing my luck it will be towards the 8.8:1 mark which im affraid is just a little to high unless i have to count on the J and S to keep knock away as the boost hits 15-18psi (water injection would be nice right about now )

I need to have a chat with mike a ferriday and see if we can come to a conclucion but tomorow i need to get measuring again to see if im getting the same figures time and time again for accuracy and then go from there

jason

Got a few things done again today so im feeling good, finaly sorted out my speedo that hasnt worked since last year! and ive swapped my totaly knackered alternator for a new one ,swapped my dirty header tank for my sisters old one which is much cleaner and cleaned the block face up ready for the head to go back on!
Found a load off sh##t in my block from the past cooling problems which exspains my car running hotter than it should so im going to whip the water pump out tomorow night and do my best to flush out the rubbish but i will be running without a thermostat again as soon as the weather pics up as my car has always not minded running without (runs at a much better 80degrees) which helps keep the head gasket issues at bay.

Ill post some pics up later from today

thanks

jason

nice one m8 everything lookin top now m8! Just carnt wait to see it on road again its goin to be a little
rocket lol! You might be able to keep up with me in fourth now lol haha love it

Fishy

hello people, bit off good news today!!!!!

I had all call from Midland turbo's first thing this morning saying the turbo is done! they have fitted a larger diameter return pipe from the turbo and fitted a new oil ring, it will be back with me tomorow
Also after a chat with Mike at Ferriday Engineering after looking over the figures it seems i will have a C/R off 8.5:1 using the 1.5mm plate so im ok!

Tonight i (and fishygt for company and for pressing repeat on Calvin Harris remix!) built up the ported 75 head with my 75 cam and tappets along with new cam seal and thermostat seal, and i then built up the 75 inlet with the cutom adaptor plate and the tricker 40mm sitting ontop, the tricker misses the MPI rail by a few mm's so im happy with that and i had a fuel pipe adaptor made that screws onto the MPI rail with a push on fit pipe on the end.

The next thing was too cut some off the bulkhead out for the servo/vac pipe feed to fit on the manifold, and trial fit a spair 75 head with the inlet......its tight but it all goes in and the pipes all fit nice!
Tomorow me and Matt are going to fit the new HG and decomp plate and bolt the head down, then fit the MPI manifold and go from there, with abit off look the car will be running again on wednesday, then we will have to see if the smokey turbo syndrome has gone and if the MPI injectors work on the MF2!! fingers crossed.

thanks

jason